Avatar Gender Preference and Perception
 

Ok I was just wondering a couple of avatar "lifestyle" issues and perceptions and want to see what other people think, if you are willing to discuss it.

Let me preface by saying that I think for most people they are either male or female in RL. But for some people there is either some leeway, medically (e.g. hermaphroditism) or perceptually (e.g. transgender). I understand this and if you have this situation and wish to address how you approach avatar gender that is fine.

Feel free to not answer the questions specifically but just to discuss this issue, this is not a "answer only" kind of a thread but a discussion thread. I just put the questions here to focus the discussion.

Ideas to discuss:
1. Do you have a preference for your avatar gender and if so what is it and why and does it match your RL gender? Just answer as much of this question as you prefer.

2. Do you have perception issues with gender identification in that if you are looking at a obviously male avatar you think you are talking to a male person and same with female? Or do you have a neutral perception?

3. Do you like to know the gender of the person you talk to online, for example here at Trisphee, or do you just not care about it?

1. Do you have a preference for your avatar gender and if so what is it and why and does it match your RL gender? Just answer as much of this question as you prefer.

I'm male and so is my avatar. It's just easier. Sometimes avatar sites have more female items so I go with a female avatar.

2. Do you have perception issues with gender identification in that if you are looking at a obviously male avatar you think you are talking to a male person and same with female? Or do you have a neutral perception?

I'm neutral. If I'm curious I just ask.

3. Do you like to know the gender of the person you talk to online, for example here at Trisphee, or do you just not care about it?

Like I said, I don't care not knowing. But if I get to know someone and we talk awhile I'll ask.

Hi Slylord, I think my answers for #2 and 3 are about the same as yours. I am female and just feel more comfortable with a female avi (though I have one male avi at another site just for mule purposes). However, I don't care what others do and I never ever assume gender (or age for that matter). I try to tease it out if I want to know...sometimes if I know the person well I might just ask them outright. But most are just neutral to me.

I think though, that this neutrality sets up a wall in a way. Because in general we are a dualistic species, we can't help it. In my language there are few gender neutral pronouns or way to talk about someone without referring to gender. So I have a sense of not really knowing the person until I can establish what they are...to some extent.

Agreed, agreed.

I switch between genders for my avatar, who is male right now but was previously female, and I started with a male avatar here though I am female. Really for me it depends on the perception I have of my avatar at the moment, whether it is a reflection of myself or it's own entity. Sometimes my avatar is me, and it's female then, other times my avatar is a character, or just an idea which I have in my head, so it can be either.

I do usually look at avatars to get and idea of the gender of a person, but I know that it's not always accurate. As long as the individual doesn't fuss if I get it wrong, I don't worry about it. I'm more concerned about being embarrassed or accidentally offending someone if I get their gender wrong and they turn out to be sensitive about it.

One of the things that annoys me a little about speaking with someone where you don't know their gender is that there isn't a proper way in the English language to do it. "They" isn't really accurate though it's what I use most of them time, and "it" is just insensitive.

1. Do you have a preference for your avatar gender and if so what is it and why and does it match your RL gender? Just answer as much of this question as you prefer.
I always use feminine/androgynous/crossdressing male avatars. Seeing as how I am genderqueer (not telling what sex I was born though ;P), this is as close to my "gender" as I can really get.

2. Do you have perception issues with gender identification in that if you are looking at a obviously male avatar you think you are talking to a male person and same with female? Or do you have a neutral perception?
Well there are a few users on here that I know are female an use a male avatar (and vice versa) and some users switch their avatars gender a lot. But if I don't know the user, I assume they are the sex/gender of their avatar unless I am told otherwise.

3. Do you like to know the gender of the person you talk to online, for example here at Trisphee, or do you just not care about it?
All I care about is what pronouns to use without looking silly. Other than that, it doesn't matter one bit.

Hm, isn't this something?

1. Do you have a preference for your avatar gender and if so what is it and why and does it match your RL gender?

I actually do have a preference, but it doesn't match my RL gender. The reason why I use a male avatar is because of the way I write during serious conversations. No smilies/emoticons. No sillyness or "lol"s in a paragraph. It's just straight-up writing. I know the level of maturity here in Trisphee is high, but this is from my experience. The reason why I don't use a female avatar is because people have assumed I'm a guy just by my way of writing things and giving advice. They think that it's weird for a guy to use a female avi, so I caved in and from then on, I started using male avis.

The only way you can tell I'm a female is by the way I talk during casual talks. I will pretty much use smilies and say lol in almost every paragraph. I'll also be a huge worry-wart.

2. Do you have perception issues with gender identification in that if you are looking at a obviously male avatar you think you are talking to a male person and same with female? Or do you have a neutral perception?

I do have perception issues, but once I learn about a person's real gender, the perception is gone. I guess the word pertaining to me is more like, "assumption" rather than "perception."

3. Do you like to know the gender of the person you talk to online, for example here at Trisphee, or do you just not care about it?

I honestly don't care. If the person wants to tell me, they'll tell me. I have no issues with people withholding their rl gender.

1. I have a female avatar because that is what I know, I understand how to dress a female and when I make a male avi I feel out of my skin unless I am cosplaying of Roleplaying.

2. I typically go by the name and then the avatar, like Suze's name makes me think female and the gender is neutral on the Avi a lot so I thought Suze was a female until I got corrected several times.... But I typically can make an educated guess off what they write and how they dress if their name gives me no clues.

3. I prefer to know so i don't look silly... like Ulti is They, Suze is a He, and Quiet is a she.. The three of them tripped me up for a while until I started to remember them. Espy is an Espy because they prefer not to talk about it on Trisphee at times.

1. Do you have a preference for your avatar gender and if so what is it and why and does it match your RL gender? Just answer as much of this question as you prefer. I prefer female avatars, mostly because most avatar sites have more female items than male, and also because I generally am more feminine. I am genderqueer, though, so it doesn't really MATCH my gender...

2. Do you have perception issues with gender identification in that if you are looking at a obviously male avatar you think you are talking to a male person and same with female? Or do you have a neutral perception? I have no issue with gender on the avatar matching gender behind the screen.. I have a few friends on other forums that use almost exclusively male avatars for general RP purposes but they are female, and I know quite a few people that fall under the Trans* umbrella in some way.

3. Do you like to know the gender of the person you talk to online, for example here at Trisphee, or do you just not care about it? Pronouns are good. I'd rather know someone's preferred pronouns, and if I don't, I generally will refer to them by username until I know. Unless they're awesome like Ultima and tell me in their signature.

Speaking of, I should do that.. >.>

1. Do you have a preference for your avatar gender and if so what is it and why and does it match your RL gender? Just answer as much of this question as you prefer.
I wholly prefer female avatars just because I have a hard time making "cute" male avatars. This applies to everywhere, not just Trisphee. It technically matches my RL gender since I portray myself as such in RL, but the reality is that my physical self is male.

2. Do you have perception issues with gender identification in that if you are looking at a obviously male avatar you think you are talking to a male person and same with female? Or do you have a neutral perception?
I almost always assume people are female. I hate to admit it but I do have a problem with males before I get to know them so I try to view people as female until then.

3. Do you like to know the gender of the person you talk to online, for example here at Trisphee, or do you just not care about it?
I usually don't care, which relates to my issues. I do like to know eventually but I usually can tell after talking to them a while. I'm not ALWAYS correct of course...

Ultima is awesome? 0w0

Yes, they are :)

1. Do you have a preference for your avatar gender and if so what is it and why and does it match your RL gender? Just answer as much of this question as you prefer.

I don't think I'm capable of creating a female avatar anymore. All of my avatars are based off some part of my own personality, usually the darker, more contemplative side. I've also done slightly insane-looking avatars when really pissed off. ...I'm good at tangents, aren't I.

How should I explain this...My avatar usually will match my gender. And there is a reason why "gender" is italicized.

2. Do you have perception issues with gender identification in that if you are looking at a obviously male avatar you think you are talking to a male person and same with female? Or do you have a neutral perception?

With regards to people I don't know too well, I usually assume avatar gender corresponds to sex. But then again, there have been people who I've completely assumed the wrong sex for.

3. Do you like to know the gender of the person you talk to online, for example here at Trisphee, or do you just not care about it?

I don't care much.

1. Do you have a preference for your avatar gender and if so what is it and why and does it match your RL gender?
Oh, yes. My avatars are always female, and that does match my RL gender. I do tend to see my avatar as an extension of myself (albeit far more interesting and awesome than the real article), and I think that causes problems for me in accepting a male avatar. This might have something to do with my being a MtF transsexual. When I first joined Gaia in 2006, I remember that I had a male avatar in the very beginning, but this was when I was just starting to find myself. That male avi lasted less than a day, and I never looked back. I passed two years in transition this past July, and I'm finally able to live life as myself on and off the net. While I no longer need to escape into the world of the internet to avoid the physical truth, I would still have problems with using a male avi (which is why I don't).

2. Do you have perception issues with gender identification in that if you are looking at a obviously male avatar you think you are talking to a male person and same with female? Or do you have a neutral perception?
I try to maintain a neutral perception, and I always pay attention when someone specifies the pronouns they wish to be addressed by like Ultima has done in their signature (because I've sure had to correct people more than a few times in the past, if not so much anymore [thankfully]).

3. Do you like to know the gender of the person you talk to online, for example here at Trisphee, or do you just not care about it?
If they want to be addressed in a certain way, I will listen. In general, though, it doesn't really matter to me. If you're male with a female avi, or vise versa, I don't see that it's my business unless you want me to know.

I am just amazed and impressed by all of the answers I have read. I carefully read what each one of you wrote and I am just over-awed that some of you are sharing the stories about your gender, about your avatars that you have shared. I didn't really know that this was something anyone even thought about when I asked. I thought I would come back to maybe an answer or 2 and there are so many answers and all so diverse and honest and heartfelt.

This is an amazing place here at Trisphee where one can represent oneself however one wants too. I remember when avatar sites were not so flexible though most are now allowing a crossover between the male and female items or making some unisex.

It does seem to be the trend though that people like to know how a person wants to be addressed. And we do have this pronoun issue in English so that can be a problem. But on the other hand there is a balance where asking may or may not be appropriate and the answers may be unexpected!

1. Do you have a preference for your avatar gender and if so what is it and why and does it match your RL gender? Just answer as much of this question as you prefer.

Except for on Gaia (where I have both), I always have male avatars. I prefer the pronouns that are used for me to match the avatar I'm using.

2. Do you have perception issues with gender identification in that if you are looking at a obviously male avatar you think you are talking to a male person and same with female? Or do you have a neutral perception?

Neutral. I know that it's not uncommon for people to just pick what they want to dress up as for the day.

3. Do you like to know the gender of the person you talk to online, for example here at Trisphee, or do you just not care about it?

I only care so I can use the correct pronouns.

♫♫ My rl gender is my pref, it matches my real life gender and I like it that way just because ^^;


♫♫ I always tend to associate the person's gender with their avatars. I had that problem before with one of my friends here (not naming them) and got into a bit of a confusion (not in a bad way though), but now I'm starting to /try/ having the neutral perception on everything (but it's just haaaaaaaaaard)

♫♫ Yes, absolutely. I want to know if they're female, male, trans, neutral, neither... or however it is, so that I may know what "pronouns" to use. I end up slightly offending people and I don't want that.

I'll start by saying that I don't identify with either gender. Usually I just say I am genderfluid because to explain how I really feel about gender would longer than most people have time for.

1. Do you have a preference for your avatar gender and if so what is it and why and does it match your RL gender?

I fluctuate between a male and female avatar randomly. Right now, I think my avatar is technically female, though it could easily be switched to male with little difference.

2. Do you have perception issues with gender identification in that if you are looking at a obviously male avatar you think you are talking to a male person and same with female? Or do you have a neutral perception?

Sometimes I begin to imagine the person I am talking to as if they look just like their avatar. So in that sense, if your avatar is a male, I might imagine you as that male. In the end though, it doesn't make a difference to me if I'm wrong. It's not like my perception changes if someone I thought was a woman is actually a man or vice versa. It's a trivial difference.

3. Do you like to know the gender of the person you talk to online, for example here at Trisphee, or do you just not care about it?

I'm not interested to know the gender of the person I am talking to. It's irrelevant to me.

Meizicht wrote:
"I'm not going to answer questions specifically; I just wanted to give a certain opinion here about one thing in particular.
In my opinion, pronouns to use have nothing to do with what parts you have in real life. The only way what gender you are irl has any importance is if you plan to have sex with them or you're a doctor and you need to know for medical reasons."

Hi there, sorry I really have to disagree with this. I think I know what you are getting at from what you say afterwards, but just let me interject that RL gender is part and parcel of what we are not only internally and externally but socially and it has complete relevance and importance to the individual no matter what, no matter if you embrace the concept or you reject it. Avatar gender is a different matter.

Meizicht goes on to say:
"It always really pisses me off when I see someone get unreasonably mad at a person who projects his/her/theirself as one gender, but are physically the other. It's nobody's business, really. It's not like they have to inform everyone if they have specific parts; in my opinion, it's really intrusive when people ask one another what they are irl. Really... why would they need to know? What would they use that information for? If you're a he, you'll tell people. If you're a she, you'll tell people. If you're neither or both or whatever, you'll tell people. Regardless of what you are physically. Aside from those you're romantically involved with, and your doctor, it's nobody's business whatsoever."

I think you are right that on some level it is intrusive to ask, however, we are a curious species. We are a social species and we are a young species. We have a lot of male/female baggage genetically, historically, socially. It's only natural to be curious about those with whom we interact. :]

I happen to like what Meizicht has to say. I imagine that someday in the future, gender won't have the relevance it does today, just as today it doesn't have the relevance it did in the past. Meizicht is right that the only real practical reasons to distinguish between gender are sexual/reproductive. And since our species is thriving right now, it's not especially important to procreate anymore. Then, the only reason gender becomes such an important part of our identities is that it has been historically so our society keeps passing that on to its children.

That is an interesting point of view Gaius. I think the world of the future will be all the more interesting for the thoughts and opinions of you and Meizicht and others who feel the same. Though I said above I disagreed on the importance to us in RL of our genders, for a variety of reasons, perhaps the tide is turning on that for some people. You will find of the 6 billion on the earth that most of them are interested in gender. I think that is fact. However, to have a world where it did not matter...well that would be very good indeed. I think we need to just keep evolving and producing people who just don't care much about it and it will come to pass.

Indeed. I just look at how far we have come, even in the last one hundred years. If you think people are interested in gender now, how do you think they felt about it in the early 1900s when women couldn't even vote or hold jobs or get an education because they were all just expected to get married to men who would support them while they stayed home and did housework and reared children? The old model has been challenged so much even in that short time, I cannot imagine the current one wouldn't be.

Quick set of bullet points:

* No, physical sex has absolutely no ties to personal gender beyond just a statistical correlation that most people physically male are also male-gendered and most people physically female are also female-gendered. The exceptions aren't necessarily a "rejection" of the physical sex.

* While older feminist theories thought that gender was a purely social construct, that's just as naive of a view as the thought that gender is purely physical. Both extremes fail to account for a LOT of people.

* You will find that most of those 6 billion people actually AREN'T "interested" in their gender. They just live their lives as they find comfortable, rarely thinking about the role their gender plays.

Gender is a complicated thing and there are few generalizations that can be safely made without alienating or omitting some people. The most important thing is to respect those who you meet.

1. Do you have a preference for your avatar gender and if so what is it and why and does it match your RL gender? Just answer as much of this question as you prefer.
Female-it is my gender in real life, though I have been mistaken for a guy/lesbian multiple times -.-

2. Do you have perception issues with gender identification in that if you are looking at a obviously male avatar you think you are talking to a male person and same with female? Or do you have a neutral perception?
I try to go neutral because people just choose a gender for an avatar and many even change it if the website lets them due to gender specific items and all.

3. Do you like to know the gender of the person you talk to online, for example here at Trisphee, or do you just not care about it?
It doesn't matter...unless they start hitting on me which never happens XD

This especially. Because people are so varied, I generally ask - if I don't know - what people prefer to be referred to.

Gender is a social construct, in the US there are only 2 in some places there are as much as 7 different genders. Male, Female, Bisexual, Transexual, Masculine Female, Feminine Male, & Inner sex are the ones I have come across. The Jewish texts have 6 genders mentioned in it.
Sex is your physical placement, if you have a Y chromosome you are of the male sex if you have no Y you are female sex, this is due to markers in the body and skeleton things like your hips, skull and long bones. Muscle attachments also trend to be larger.

That is what I have been taught in my field of study.

Coda, I don't see how it's naive to think of gender as a social construct. I just can't wrap my head around that. :/ Why do you say that view fails to account for some people?

What are you studying Tiva? :O

Interesting, Tiva. I don't see bisexuality or intersexed as relating to gender, as it relates to sex and sexuality.

An intersexed individual could identify as a female, male, bigendered, androgynous. None of the above, or what have you.

Same with a bisexual.

Neither sex nor gender is that simple, Tiva. Looking at it from the perspective of X and Y chromosomes completely disregards intersex conditions and the activity of hormones in the womb and during development.

Saying that there are only 2 genders in the US and as many as 7 in other cultures is completely missing the point. The language spoken in the US may only verbally acknowledge two, but Ultima lives in the US and they're neither male nor female. And there are people -- in the US -- who consider themselves both at once, or a third gender as opposed to one or the other. Gender is not a binary, it is not a spectrum, it's more like a ball of wibbly-wobbly, gendery-wendery... stuff.

Furthermore, plenty of women in the US these days are pursuing lifestyles that are societally considered masculine, but no one doubts their femininity. (The same cannot be said for men -- it seems in our culture it's much easier to doubt someone's masculinity.) Does their lifestyle, and society's statements about their lifestyle, determine their gender? Does it influence their gender? Clearly the answer is: no, it does not.

The fact remains that transgender individuals exist in all cultures across the world and throughout time, regardless of what that society's standards and opinions are. You can have a butch transwoman, and she's still a woman even if she acts masculinely and has a Y chromosome. Saying that gender is solely a societal construct is NOT empowering -- it is as limiting as saying that gender is a biological construct.

Coda: Absolutely! This past summer, I took a Psychology of Gender class that was being offered at my college. At the end of the last class, the prof asked us each if our opinion on the biological/societal divide in gender had changed at all. All but maybe two said that the class really had changed the way they viewed gender. It's such an incredibly complex thing, and it isn't pure anything.
Also, I actually know a trans-woman through Gaia who nobody questions the fact of her being a woman, but she could be seen as a complete butch lesbian stereotype in how she dresses and acts (I'm kind of a half-femme/half-butch lesbian, myself). For people who have challenged me on some of my behaviors, I just tell them that I've been through everything I have to finally be myself, so why would I turn around and start acting like a stereotype (feminine, masculine, or otherwise).

Also, Tiva: There has been some work done in genetics that suggests even the old sex chromosome dynamic most people know (X-Y, et al), and we aren't even getting into intersexed folks (people with XXY, men with XX, women with XY... and on into complication). The last I heard on it was several years ago, but according to what I read there were several more genes involved in keeping even adult bodies towards one side or the other, physically speaking. More studies need to be done on this, but it's interesting all the same.

Coda, that is a generic, generically there are 7 genders that people identify with on a global scale if you like i can go into more detail of how anthropologically you taught the 7 area of gender. In Islam a masculine female is someone who does Male activities but is female by sex and identify as a female. Same with feminine male, they preform a women's actives but are male by genetic sex and identify as a male. Those are about the easier ways to put it because innersex in the Jewish circle is Androgynos, while in Indonesia is if Bissu. They are both a third gender meaning innersex.

And yes it is that easy Coda, genetically if you have a Y chromosome you have more 'maculine features' such as a triangular pelvis and larger mastoidal processes. When you lack a Y chromosome your pelvis is a more round to square shape to provide for child birth. Really it is only 2 sex system because the third sex is an 'indeterminate' meaning it is a mix of features and not clearly defined. Hermaphrodites are classified by what works, egg or sperm production. And if neither work they are classifed by if they lack or have a Y, if they have XXY and a working penis they are classified as male, if no working penis then female. If XYY (super Male) you are typically a sterile male, due to working a penis.

Who you are attracted to, and what sex you wish to identify as, is part of Gender. Ulti please dont read this... I dont want to offend you but anthropologically this is how it is defined. Even if your brain identifies as female and you change your soft tissue to become more female(defined as XX) your DNA still shows as XY(defined as male). You chose to either call yourself transgendered, meaning that you have physically switched your gender, or you identify as the gender of your new body.

In the United States your birth certificate has two boxes, male or female. Those are the only genders that the united states as a government identifies and endorses. Ulti choses to mark the box called other on some forms but in a US census you do not have a 3rd box to mark, it is male or female and Ulti will have to choose to mark one of those boxes and identify as that for census purposes.

I am in Anthropology, this is how we are taught. If you don't agree with it... then get the US to change how they want it taught.

I have yet to see an "other" option on an official-like form of any kind x.x; Sometimes on school surveys and such I've seen "man, woman, transman, transwoman" ... which still does not include me x.x;;
Yeah, I cannot even begin to tell you how much it sucks being an "other" that few even want to acknowledge the existence of...

And by the way, no worries. It takes a lot more than talking about the facts to offend me ^^

I said transwoman -- that is to say, a MtF individual. Therefore this person is a woman, regardless of the fact that she has a Y chromosome. She has male physiology, but this only matters to medical professionals and sexual partners, and considering her "male" in any social sense is simply incorrect.

If gender stereotypes didn't exist, then yes, transgendered individuals would be less stigmatized, but they would still exist. Many would find comfort in simply being queer, but others would still find a strong sense of dysphoria concerning the mismatch between their minds and their bodies.

No, Tiva, it is not that easy.

Imbalances in fetal hormones during pregnancy can cause such effects as CAIS, in which a fetus with XY chromosomes doesn't metabolize testosterone and other androgens and as such their body develops under the influence of estrogens -- you end up with someone who appears female in every manner, including having a vagina instead of a penis, but carries a Y chromosome.

Hormones control fat distribution and tissue development. Even without a genetic intersex condition, under the influence of estrogen, a male body will grow breasts, will add new fat deposits to the hips instead of to the waist, will experience muscular atrophy, and will experience thinning of body hair. Under the influence of testosterone, a female body will experience muscle growth, hair growth, and deepening of the voice.

You can say that world cultures define genders that fall into seven rough categories, except that doesn't mean much. Even ignoring the fact that your categories conflate gender with sexuality, which is a pretty fatal blow for the theory, it provides no useful predictive value, because the social stereotypes RELATED to those seven categories vary from culture to culture.

Official documents offer M and F boxes, but that's because the law is a machine, a computer, an inflexible, ignorant piece of bureaucracy that doesn't care about human beings beyond their value as statistics. Only human beings can have value judgments. And note that at least one high-profile case in Australia has an official government ID that says "Gender: Not Specified" instead of "M" or "F".

So please, discard your preconceived notions and your attempts to define definite categorizations of what gender is and isn't. At best you can set up statistical groups, but no hard division of genders will ever encompass everyone.